On May 20, 2006, David Kilgour interviewed Annie. The following transcript was edited (to protect those who would otherwise be in danger due to publication of the interview) and abridged.

Kilgour: In 2001, when did the procurement of food supplies for [Sujiatun Hospital] go up?

Annie: About July, in the summer.

Kilgour: July 2001. You were in the accounting department?

Annie: Statistics and Logistics Department.

Kilgour: Statistics and Logistics Department. What happened? The procurement of food went up first and then the surgical equipment?

Annie: In July 2001, there were many people working in the Statistics and Logistics Department. Some of them from procurement brought the receipts to me for signature after they made the purchase. On the receipts I noted sharp increases in the food supplies. Also, the people in charge of the logistics were delivering meals to the facilities where Falun Gong practitioners were detained. Other medical staff came to our department to report the purchase of the medical equipment. From the receipts, the medical equipment supplies also sharply increased.

Kilgour: By the way, the facilities to detain Falun Gong practitioners, was it the underground facilities?

Annie: In the backyard of the hospital, there were some one-storey houses typically built for construction workers. After several months, the consumption of food and other supplies gradually decreased. At that time people guessed that maybe the detainees were sent to an underground facility.

Kilgour: When did the supply decrease? September? October?

Annie: After about four or five months.

Kilgour: End of 2001?

Annie: Yes.

Kilgour: How much of an increase did you estimate it was from the food [receipts you saw]? How many people you estimated were there?

Annie: The person in charge of getting the food and in charge of sending food to Falun Gong practitioners detained told me that there were about 5,000 to 6,000 practitioners. At the time, a lot of public security bureaus and hospitals in many areas were detaining many Falun Gong practitioners. A lot of people working at the hospital, including me, were not Falun Gong practitioners. So we didn’t pay attention. If it were not for what happened in 2003, when I found my ex-husband was directly involved in it, I probably wouldn’t be interested in this at all. A lot of the staffers working in our department are family members of the officials in the government health care system. For some matters, we knew it in our hearts but none of us would discuss these things.

Kilgour: When they decreased the procurement, where did you think the practitioners went?

Annie: We thought they were released.

Kilgour: At the end of 2001, you thought they were released?

Annie: Yes.

Kilgour: All 5,000 had been released?

Annie: No, there were still Falun Gong practitioners detained in the hospital, but the number was gradually decreasing. Later, in 2003, I learned that Falun Gong practitioners had been transferred to the underground complex and other hospitals, because our hospital couldn’t hold so many people.

Kilgour: They left the houses or cabins in the backyard to go to underground?

Annie: Yes, I later got to know this in 2002.

Kilgour: Did you say that you were not the person to send food to them when practitioners were detained in the houses or cabins in the backyard?

Annie: No, I was not.

Kilgour: Did you know who supplied their meals after they left your jurisdiction?

Annie: I didn’t know.

Kilgour: I heard a lot of these people were killed for their organs. 2001 and 2002. Was it the correct understanding?

Annie: During the years of 2001-2002, I didn’t know anything about organ-harvesting. I only knew the detention of these people.

Kilgour: So you didn’t discover this until you husband told

you in 2003.

Annie: Right.

Kilgour: Did he tell you that in 2001-2002 he had already

started doing these operations?

Annie: Yes, he started in 2002.

Kilgour: Your former husband began in 2002?

Annie: Yes.

Kilgour: Did you roughly know if there were [organ

removal] operations since 2001?

Annie: The operations started in 2001. Some were done in

our hospital, and some were done at other hospitals in the

region. I found out in 2003. At the beginning, he also did

the operations, but he did not know they were Falun Gong

practitioners. He was a neurosurgeon. He removed

corneas. Starting from 2002 he got to know those he operated on were Falun Gong practitioners. Because our hospital was not an organ transplant hospital – it was only in

charge of removal – how these organs were transplanted,

he didn’t know.

Kilgour: Your ex-husband started to take organs from

Falun Gong practitioners starting from when?

Annie: At the end of 2001, he started to operate, but he

didn’t know these live bodies were Falun Gong practitioners. He got to know that in 2002.

Kilgour: What kind of organs did he take out?

Annie: Corneas.

Kilgour: Just corneas?

Annie: Yes.

Kilgour: Were these people alive or dead?

Annie: Usually these Falun Gong practitioners were

injected with a shot to cause heart failure. During the

process these people would be pushed into operation

rooms to have their organs removed. On the surface the

heart stopped beating, but the brain was still functioning,

because of that shot.

Kilgour: What was the injection called?

Annie: I don’t know the name of it but it caused heart failure. I was not a nurse or a doctor. I don’t know the names

of the injections.

Kilgour: Causing heart failure, most, or all, or some cases?

Annie: For most people.

Kilgour: So he would take corneas of these people, then

what happened to these people?

Annie: These people were pushed to other operation

rooms for removals of heart, liver, kidneys, etc. During one

operation when he collaborated with other doctors, he

learned they were Falun Gong practitioners, that their

organs were removed while alive, and that it was not just

cornea removal. They were removing many organs.

Kilgour: They did it in different rooms, didn’t they?

Annie: In the later period of time, when these doctors cooperated together, they started doing the operations

together. At the beginning, fearing information could leak

out, different organs were removed by different doctors in

different rooms. Later on, when they got money, they were

no longer afraid any more. They started to remove the

organs together. For other practitioners who were operated on in other hospitals, my ex-husband didn’t know

what happened to them afterwards. For the practitioners

in our hospital, after their kidneys, liver, etc. and skin were

removed, there were only bones and flesh, etc. left. The

bodies were thrown into the boiler room at the hospital.

In the beginning, I did not fully believe this had happened.

For some doctors who had operation accidents, they may

form some illusions. So I checked with other doctors and

other officials from the government health care system.

Kilgour: In 2003 or 2002?

Annie: 2003.

Kilgour: Your husband only did corneas?

Annie: Yes.

Kilgour: How many cornea operations did your ex-husband perform?

Annie: He said about 2,000.

Kilgour: Corneas of 2,000 people, or 2,000 corneas?

Annie: Corneas of around 2,000 people.

Kilgour: This is from 2001 to 2003?

Annie: From the end of 2001 to October 2003.

Kilgour: That was when he left?

Annie: It was the time that I got to know this and he

stopped doing it.

Kilgour: Where did these corneas go?

Annie: They were usually collected by other hospitals.

There was an existing system handling such business of

the removal and sales of the organs to other hospitals or

other areas.

Kilgour: Nearby or far away?

Annie: I don’t know.

Kilgour: All the heart, liver, kidneys, and corneas go off to

other hospitals?

Annie: Yes.

Kilgour: Did you know what prices they sold them for?

Annie: I don’t know at the time. However, in the year 2002,

a neighbour had a liver transplant. It cost 200,000 yuan.

The hospital charged a little bit less for Chinese than foreigners.

Kilgour: Which year, 2001 or 2002?

Annie: 2002.

Kilgour: What was your husband told? How did they justify? These were perfectly healthy people?

Annie: In the beginning, he wasn’t told anything. He was

asked to help out in other hospitals. However, every time

when he did such a favour, or provided this kind of help,

he got lots of money, and cash awards – several dozen

times his normal salary.

Kilgour: What was the total amount of money he got out

of the 2,000 cornea removals?

Annie: Hundreds of thousands of U.S. dollars.

Kilgour: Were they paid in U.S. dollars?

Annie: Paid in Chinese yuan. Equivalent to hundreds of thousands of U.S. dollars.

Kilgour: How many doctors were working on these organ

removals in the hospital, and in which area? Are we talking about 100 doctors, or dozens, or 10?

Annie: I don’t know how many people were doing it

specifically. But I know that about four or five doctors who

were acquaintances of us at our hospital were doing it.And

in other hospitals, doctors of general practice were also

doing this.

Kilgour: Are there any records in the statistics department

regarding how many people were operated upon?

Annie: There was no proper procedure or paperwork for

this kind of operation. So there was no way to count the

number of operations in the normal way.

Kilgour: After practitioners transferred underground at

the end of 2001, did you know where their food supplies

were from?

Annie: Food still came from our department; just the

amount gradually decreased. At the end of 2001 we

thought they were released. In 2003, I learned that they

were not released but were transferred underground or to

other hospitals.

Kilgour: Was the underground facility run by the military

army or by the hospital? You said food was still from the

hospital.

Annie: We weren’t responsible for the procurement of the

food for the people detained and kept underground. That

is why there was so much difference in the procurement

of food when people were transferred to the underground

complex. But the food of some of the detainees was provided by the hospital, and for others it was not. The

decrease in food was not proportional to the decrease in

the number of detainees.

Kilgour: What did your husband tell you about the underground facility? Five thousand people killed, or more than

5,000?

Annie: He didn’t know how many people were detained

underground. He only heard from some others that people were detained underground. If three operations were

done every day, after several years of operation, for the 5,000-6,000 people, not many people would be left. This whole scheme and the trading of organs were organized by the government health care system. The doctors’ responsibility was simply to do what they were told to do.

Kilgour: He didn’t go down to the underground facility

himself?

Annie: He didn’t.

Kilgour: Rudimentary operations in the underground

facility?

Annie: He had never been there.

Kilgour: All of those people, were they dead when they

were operated on? Or their hearts stopped? Did he know

that they were killed afterwards? They weren’t yet dead.

Annie: At the beginning, he didn’t know these were Falun

Gong practitioners. As time went by, he knew they were

Falun Gong practitioners. When they did more of these

removals of organs and became bold, these doctors started

to do the removals together; this doctor extracted the

cornea, another doctor removed the kidney, the third doctor took out the liver. At that time, this patient, or this Falun Gong practitioner, he knew what was the next step to treat the body. The heart stopped beating, but they were still living. If the victim’s skin was not peeled off and only internal organs were removed, the openings of the bodies would be sealed and an agent would sign the paperwork. The bodies would be sent to the crematorium near the Sujiatun area.

Kilgour: Only if the skin was removed, they would be sent to the boiler room?

Annie: Yes.

Kilgour: Usually what was the “supposed” cause of death given?

Annie: Usually no specific reason when the bodies were

sent to the crematorium. Usually the reasons were “The

heart stopped beating”, “heart failure”. When these people

were rounded up and detained, nobody knew their names

or where they were from. So when they were sent to the

crematorium, nobody could claim their bodies.

Kilgour: Who administered the drug to cause the heart to

stop beating?

Annie: Nurse.

Kilgour: Nurse working for the hospital?

Annie: Nurses brought over by these doctors. Doctors,

including my ex-husband, came to this hospital in 1999 or

2000. He brought his nurse over. When organ-harvesting

first started, nurses were assigned to the doctors.Wherever

the doctors go, their nurses go with them as far as the

organ removal operations were concerned.

Kilgour: How many did you think were still alive?

Annie: Initially I estimated there were about 2,000 people left at the time I left China in 2004. But I cannot give a figure any more, because China is still arresting Falun Gong practitioners and there have been people coming in and going out. So I cannot give a figure now any more.

Kilgour: How did you come to this number 2,000 in 2004?

Annie: According to how many my ex-husband did and how many other doctors did. And how many sent to other hospitals. Good doctors are well connected within the health care system. Many of them used to be classmates in medical schools. The number was estimated by the few

doctors involved. When we were together in private, they discussed how many people in total. At that time, these doctors did not want to continue. They wanted to go to other countries or transfer to other fields. So the total number of deaths was calculated and derived by these doctors involved.

Kilgour: What is their estimate of how many people were

killed?

Annie: They estimated 3,000-4,000 people.

Kilgour: This is the estimate by all of the doctors?

Annie: No. By three doctors we were familiar with.

Kilgour: Do you have anything else you want to say?

Annie: Chinese or non-Chinese, they think it is impossible Sujiatun detained so many Falun Gong practitioners.

They focused on just this Sujiatun hospital. Because most people do not know there are underground facilities. I want to say, even if things were over for Sujiatun, in other hospitals this issue continues. Because I worked in Sujiatun, I know about Sujiatun. Other hospitals and detention centres’ inspecting and putting control on these facilities will help reduce the deaths.

For Chinese people, one person comes out, there are still family members in China. They still dare not come out to speak the truth.

They are afraid it could put their family members in danger. It doesn’t mean that they don’t know about it.